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Thursday, July 27, 2017

Map: Eastern Europe c. 4000-2500 BC


Interesting map, don't you think? It comes from here. But how accurate is it? And does it match ancient DNA?


Citation...

Bluhm, Lara, *dhéĝhōm,*héshr, and *wek (earth, blood, and speech): an archaeological, genetic, and linguistic exploration of Indo-European origins (2017). Honors Projects. 80. http://digitalcommons.bowdoin.edu/honorsprojects/80

89 comments:

epoch2013 said...

Yamnaya in Romania and Bulgaria are what Anthony describes in The Horse, The Wheel and Language.

Ric Hern said...

Interesting that he mentions the Dnieper-Donets Culture as the ones who adopted pastoralism around 5200 bC. already. Did he include Sredny Stog among the broader Dnieper-Donets umbrella and therefore didn't mention it specifically ?

The map is interesting however Corded Ware seems to be more North-West. Would I be wrong if I say it should be closer to the Yamnaya and Cucuteni should be more towards the South regarding its Northern extent ? Or is the map bent scew ?

Looking at this map it looks like Yamnaya split in two directions around the Carpathians. A significant gap and absticles between Bulgaria and Hungary ?

Ric Hern said...

If that contact point between Corded Ware Yamnaya and Cucuteni is near Derievka then it could be relatively accurate....

jv said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gioiello said...

How do you read in this map that R-L51 came to Western Europe from Yamnaya? And how do you read that centum languages came to Western Europe from Eastern Europe?

Al Bundy said...

I haven't downloaded the thing but why talk about PIE spreading with agriculture? It's a dead horse and horses are beautiful.Stop beating them.The Kurgan theory has flaws and might have to be revised but agriculture is over with.

Al Bundy said...

I jumped to the end of it and she says the steppe theory is more probable than Renfrew.That's been clear for a few years.Since the Haak and Allentoft papers that's been the case.Let's move on and say that the Kurgan theory works for Northern and Central Europe and probably India which is most of Late IE.Greek and Anatolian will complete the rest.

epoch2013 said...

Anthony says in the part where describes the Danube and Balkan Kurgans that western Yamnaya north of the Black Sea is dated later (also later than Corded Ware) and suggests western Yamnaya is a back migration from the Danube.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
epoch2013 said...

@Rob

I don't fancy myself as a scholar. I am an amateur. I lack all kinds of knowledge. I am, however, deeply interested so I tend to suck up what I read.

That might very well be an asset as well as an issue :-)

Rob said...

No, limited and outdated reference range ain't an asset
It's just boring parroting

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

You missed my point. Never mind. Anthony's remark on dating is incorrect according to you?

Rob said...

@ Ric

Sredny Stog - Khvalynsk dates form 4200, not 5200 BC.
Prettty important detail

Ric Hern said...

Well Rob the Paper only Mentions Dnieper-Donets as far as I read and do not mention Sredny Stog. However it says that Cattle Domestication was introduced at 5200 bC. into Dnieper-Donets.

Lukasz M said...

Those are much more informative, I think

https://s2.postimg.org/qb2vhx95l/4000-3100.png

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/copper-age-early-2.jpg

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/copper-age-late-2.jpg

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/early-bronze-age-2.jpg

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

Well Rob don't you think Universities should update their available research material then ? If it confuses a Honors Student like this imagine what is does to an Average Joe like me....

Al Bundy said...

I just looked at the abstract and the conclusions and maybe that doesn't do the whole thing justice,but based on that and Rob 's comments,it could have been written a few years ago.Things have changed a lot since then.

Al Bundy said...

@Rob Those dates you mentioned are huge because according to the steppe theory one of those steppe groups actually spoke PIE.

Al Bundy said...

I wonder how those dates square with Anatolian and its' origins.

batman said...

Rob,

"what would really impress me is an actually chronologically precise map of *all* cultures at 500 year intervals, correlated with genetic data"

Agree.

Adding EBK/GAC, FB/LBK and PWC/CWC one may find some interesting timelines at the latest known start of the post-glacial, Eurasian pottery - 9.000+ years ago. When the EBK/GA turned into Funneled Beakers a variety of 'styles' and traditions, such as Stroked, Impressed, Pitted, Combed, Corded and Bellied beakers. When BB and CWC takes presedence we're well into the 'second wave' of agriculturalisation – where larger lifestocks would spread throuhout Northern Eurasia.

As descendants of the FB/LBK-cultures the CWC and BB would spread with the advanced, LNE cattle-farming. Curiously, the dynastical structure of R1a and R1b appearing during this period seem to coincide – in gross – with the distribution of boataxes and CWC, battleaxes and BB...

Eurasian aDNA proves that R1a/b were instrumental to the spread of cattle-farming. It also clearify that either R1a or R1b has any shed of origin in Anatolia or the Fertile Crescent, or the Middle East.

AFAIK there's no indications that the lines of R1a spreading CWC, boataxes and coppermining to Tarim - and the R1b who took BB-stocks to Yamna and Majkop - were unable to understand the languages of the older societies they became neighbours and relatives of. As they arrived to the various parts of Eurasia it seems that their new neighbours were already well versed in the I-E tongue and vocalubary. Among all suggested explanations to the dispersal of the IE languages, that's obviously the most plain, simple and plausible.

Someone better collect the available facts and produce a relevant time-line and due maps, marking the documented changes of pottery, technology and geneology. From the mesolithic onwards, please. Asap.

Rob said...

@ Ric

I wouldn't blame the university, it's up to the individual - any individual to state current. I myself am a mere casual reader. There's so much information out there, so there's no excuse for regurgitating the same errors time and again.

Here is the most up to date palaeozoological analysis of the Black Sea region

" Der Übergang zur Rinderzucht im nördlichen Schwarzmeerraum" Elke kaiser

Even for the monolingual, the pictures are helpful.

@ Al

Yes those dates are huge, but for the opposite reason you assume. The entire corpus of steppe Chalcolithic dates are much younger than assumed, which throws out the idea of the 'Kurgan I' wave. Combined with the growing data which shows that there were no pastoralists on the steppe before 3333 BC, which matches the genetic evidence of genetic shift from a pure EHG population to one CHG/ EHG, then we obviously need a new story.

Davidski said...

Combined with the growing data which shows that there were no pastoralists on the steppe before 3333 BC.

Nonsense.

Khvalynsk were pastoralists, not foragers, although they did forage. Oetzi foraged too.

Al Bundy said...

That's what I meant sort of, too late maybe for those early population movements, and the author not mentioning the role of CHG which is where a lot of the focus is on now.I didn't read the whole thing maybe it was mentioned at some point.

Al Bundy said...

Khvalynsk,how they got to Anatolia, assuming for now they or a similar group did will be interesting.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Can you link us to a source which claims that Sredny Stog II and Khvalynsk weren't pastoralists but foragers, as opposed to pastoralists who also foraged?

All of the literature up to last year that I've seen says they were pastoralists who also foraged.

Philippe said...

So the Varna culture was Yamnaya?

Varna necropolis:

- first known burial of an elite male / first evidence of a hierarchical society.
- one Varna grave contained more gold than has been found in the entire rest of the world for that epoch.
- Varna is the Indian word for Castes.

Did the Caste system originate in Varna, Bulgaria, then spread to India?

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

If I'm not mistaken it looks as if you try to squeeze Maykop into the PIE story. ? What time estimate do you propose for Maykop ?

Rob said...

@ Dave

I just posted the link to Kaiser. Did you miss it ?

It shows a lack of significant domesticates before 4000 BC, and only gets going a specialised pastoral system in the Yamnaya period .

There is also the paper you have long referenced here by Shishlina which concludes on basis of isotopic data that the main staple "the data show that the Eneolithic popula-tions had a diet based on river products. This is confirmed by catfish (Silurus glanis) bones and spe-cial fishing tools (hooks and harpoons) found at Eneolithic sites (Agapov et al. 1990)"

Lastly, one can look at Frachetti "late-fifth-millennium-BC communities living on the drier north Caspian steppe were generally more mobile, hunting seasonally and living in campsites that included semiannual bases as well as more permanent settlements (Shishlina 2008:224). The faunal record from the year-round settlement of Tentek-sor (4500–4000 cal BC) reflects a hunting strategy of mainly Asian wild ass (Equus hemionus kulan; 85%) as wellas antelope (Siaga tatarica ; 5%), aurochs (5%) and a few wildhorses (Barynkin and Kozin 998:71; Kuz’mina 1988:175).
Domesticated sheep and cattle were not recovered in sites of this time period. "


Ric Hern said...

Apparently there was a Spilway between the Black and Caspian Seas that ran a few miles North of the Caucasus until +-6000 bC. when it dried up.

I can easily envision a few Proto-Yamnaya men staring at the opposite bank and seeing CHG ladies sunbathing. Building suspense....and when that Spilway dried up it became Christmas in July....

Davidski said...

@Rob

Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk are classified as pastoralist cultures.

Yes or no?

If no, post a specific quote from a source which claims that their classifications have changed.

Rob said...

Dave

The main point to focus, which you appear to be avoiding, is that SS - Khvalynsk date from after 4200 BC, not 5200 BC.
Given the conclusive evidence from recent analyses, then, no I wouldn't call them 'pastoralists', i would call them predominantly fisher-hunters, with gradual introduction of some domesticates. Hopwever, I again highlight, this doesn;t seem to have happened until late M4, and when it did, it appears rather sudden.
And this is when CHG begins to appear ?

Coincidence ?

But muh kurgan...

Rob said...

2 for 1 deal: women and cattle

Davidski said...

@Rob

Your claim that pastoralism only appeared on the steppe around 3300 BC (after Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk were gone!) is an exaggeration.

And no, I don't think your theory that Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk were by definition forager cultures will get much traction in mainstream archeology.

Rob said...

It's not my theory, it's what the archaeologists themselves have concluded - uou know, the ones you often claim to cite and understand.

Anyone who's relevant understands this very well, so you don't have to concern yourself about that. Now, if these facts somehow sit uncomfortably with individuals trying to hammer a particular point of view, then that's their issue.

Meditating can help

Samuel Andrews said...

@Chad,

Did the Iron Age genome from Finland carry some EEF and or Steppe ancestry or was it a Euro HG+East Asian mixture? If you're not allowed to give an answer please say so.

Davidski said...

@Rob

Which archaeologists have concluded that pastoralism appeared on the steppe only 3300 BC and that Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk were by definition forager cultures?

Davidski said...

@Rob

All you've shown is that foraging was still an important part of the subsistence strategy on the steppe during the Eneolithic, like it was at the same time in most of Europe. Nothing new about that.

You certainly haven't demonstrated that pastoralism appeared on the steppe only around 3300 BC.

And you haven't shown that the classification of Sredny Stog and Khvalysnk has changed from pastoralist to hunter-gatherer.

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

What I do not understand is your focus on the North Caspian while mostly everything was happening near the Dnieper River.

Was the Southern Urals ever as dry as the North Caspian region ? Was Samara ever as dry ? Even during the LGM the paintings at Kopova Cave shows Mammoths, Horses and Rhinos in that area. Why is the Northern Caspian so important ?

Rob said...

Dave

"Comparative evaluation of archeological material-la from the settlement from the steppe area along the northern coast of the Black Sea provides the opportunity to consider the issue of the beginnings of specialized livestock breeding in this part of Europe. For this purpose, animal bones from six copper-age settlements (4th millennium BC) and eleven early Babylonian settlements (3rd millennium BC) were statistically processed. It turned out that significant changes in cattle breeding come at the time of the beginning of the culture of Yamnaya graves, that is, in the period of the early Bronze Age. While in the 4th millennium in the bone material of some settlements, there is still a relatively high percentage of game, in the settlements of Usatskaya culture, which in time after 3500 cal. BC exist on the periphery of the northern Ponticn steppe region, there was already a specialized cattle-breeding economy"

https://www.academia.edu/11290674/Der_%C3%9Cbergang_zur_Rinderzucht_im_n%C3%B6rdlichen_Schwarzmeerraum

Ric

No I'm referring to the whole steppe east of the Dniester

Davidski said...

@Rob

What you just posted yourself contradicts your claim that pastoralism started on the steppe only around 3300 BC.

It turned out that significant changes in cattle breeding come at the time of the beginning of the culture of Yamnaya graves, that is, in the period of the early Bronze Age.

Significant CHANGES, not introduction of cattle breeding. Unless of course you think that the so called cattle breeding was practiced with wild cattle (???).

While in the 4th millennium in the bone material of some settlements, there is still a relatively high percentage of game.

In the 4th millennium SOME settlements show RELATIVELY high percentage of game.

Thanks for posting.

Rob said...

No problem. So that's from virtually complete foraging and fishing to virtually complete pastoralism. All in the space of a couple hundred years. That's a complete rift

Yes, that next aDNA paper will be very interesting

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

What is the meaning of specialised livestock breeding in this context ?
Does it mean that they started concentrating more on one type of animal ?

Does it mean they started selecting cattle more intensively for certain traits ?

Is a population change really needed for the spread of knowledge that could have been brought by individual traders ? Etc...

Rob said...

Ric
It means there was a migration from somewhere to the steppe, and it was large

Davidski said...

What happened to the Y-chromosomes in this large migration to the steppe? They didn't come for the ride?

Ric Hern said...

As far as Neolithic Cattle are concerned, they were mostly Big Framed and Long Horned making them more difficult to distinguish from Aurochs, while Bronze Age Cattle were Small and Short horned....

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

If the Steppe people had very little to offer these new migrants how did they trade for so many CHG women ?

Or did the backward lifestyle of the foragers appeal to this more developed immigrants women ?

Or did the Steppe Men simply overpower this huge migration of more developed immigrants ?

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

Was Maykop maybe a womens only migration ? Were their Men exterminated at the place of their origin ? Amazons comes to mind....

epoch2013 said...

@Rob + dave

The German text makes clear that Dereivka can be considered almost reliant on game only if the horse bones found there are considered to from wild horses.

"Sollten die Pferde in Dereivka zu einer wilden Spezies gehört haben, so beruhte die Subsistenz der Bewohner von Dereivka fast ausschließlich auf Jagd, in diesem Fall einer sehr spezialisierten Jagd. Diese Annahme rückt Dereivka zumindest in die Nähe wiederum der Plätze Moljuchov Bugor und Konstantinovka, deren Wildtieranteile jeweils recht hoch sind."

So there may be considerable room for interpretation.

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

"It means there was a migration from somewhere to the steppe, and it was large"

IIRC Yamnaya wasn't a big wheat growing culture. If Yamnaya is the result of a large migration it can't be from typical wheat growing cultures because the North Pontic steppe has meters thick loess soils and it should have been sowed in like crazy.

Rob said...

No there isn't
If the horse was domesticated they wouldn't be eating it ; which means they still had to fish/ hunt for the rest of their food
And as we all know the evidence for domestication from Dereivka is pretty dubious before 1500 BC

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

"If the horse was domesticated they wouldn't be eating it"

Outside the Anglo-Saxon world that isn't even true today.

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

Do you read German?

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

I am going to let this rest until civility returns. The only thing is this: The paper is far more nuanced than your interpretation of it.

epoch2013 said...

Rob seems to think - although he is not very clear in this - it debunks pastoralism in Sredny Stog sites. It doesn't.

Rob said...

@ Epoch

I'm not stating it's 'debunking' anything other your misunderstandings. You hadn't even heard of the paper, let alone claiming to understand it's 'more nuanced' interpretation. That's rich.

The paper is pretty clear in what is says. In any case, it is concordant with what other papers have also pointed to: essentially a forager-hunter - fisher until 4000 BC, which continues into 3000 BC, but with small scale & irregular experimentation with agriculture and pastoralism, before a significant social and economic shift in 3000 BC.

This parallels the genetic evidence of introgression post-4200 BC. Now, if you guys think that it was solely due to exogamy, then I don't think such an explanation best matches the evidence.

Al Bundy said...

This is important because foragers are thought to stay put and pastoralists to move around?

Al Bundy said...

The steppe only expanded out after a population rich in CHG moved in and the steppe appropriated a lot from them.The question is whether language was one of those things.If Anatolian did come from the north then there was movement before CHG.

Rob said...

@ Al Bundy

You always ask the right questions:
"If Anatolian did come from the north then there was movement before CHG"

So which hunter-gather group from north /in the steppe expanded to Anatolia before CHG admixed ( < 4000 BC) and by what mechanism/ archaeological / physical evidence ?

Rob said...

@ Epoch

"IIRC Yamnaya wasn't a big wheat growing culture. "

Of course. But what about wheat ?

Jaydeep said...

Epoch,

Both Gamkrelidze & Ivanov as well as Mallory & Adams, authors from totally different schools of IE studies, agree that the PIE had a well developed Neolithic economy. I fail to see how that can be replicated in the 4th millennium BC steppe. Moreover, while the word for wheat is more restricted in the Eastern IE languages, the words for Barley and Millets can be reconstructed for the PIE.

Al Bundy said...

DNA evidence is zero because we don't have it yet right? The archaeological and physical evidence I don't know.

Rob said...

@ Ric Hern

'If the Steppe people had very little to offer these new migrants how did they trade for so many CHG women ?

Or did the backward lifestyle of the foragers appeal to this more developed immigrants women ?

Or did the Steppe Men simply overpower this huge migration of more developed immigrants ?"

Although you're obviously trolling because your irritated you can't match debate, I never suggested forager-hunters are in anyway inferior, in fact I'm quite partial to them. Nor am I implying any simple centre-periphery model of exchange.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I;ve got it figured out, and it's most intriguing. But it's clear because you're so insecure about any prospective deviation from you emotionally held narrative.

Al Bundy said...

Anatolian is mysterious and it seems most people know little about it and therefore dismiss it as not important,it's not in Europe or India so who cares.But it's very important which is why we're talking about it.

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

You stated: "However, I again highlight, this doesn't seem to have happened until late M4, and when it did, it appears rather sudden.
And this is when CHG begins to appear?
"

From Mathieson:

"Similarly, one Copper Age individual (I4110) dated to ~3600-3400 BCE from Dereivka in Ukraine has both CHG and farmer ancestry (Figure 1D, Supplementary Data Table 2)."

Rob said...

@ Epoch.

Nice try obfuscating.
Quote properly next time:

"after 4200 BC, not 5200 BC.
Given the conclusive evidence from recent analyses, then, no I wouldn't call them 'pastoralists', i would call them predominantly fisher-hunters, with gradual introduction of some domesticates. However, I again highlight, this (the specific, wide-spread pastoral economy) doesn;t seem to have happened until late M4, and when it did, it appears rather sudden.

And this is when CHG begins to appear ... "
-As in broadly, after the early M4.

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

But it does go to show SS was CHG admixted so it is a tad pointless trying to suggest - at least that is what I think you try to suggest - that the CHG part of Steppe is related to the introduction of PIE into the steppe. You seem bent to prove SS wasn't a pastoral culture to make that point, but CHG already was there in Dereivka.

Davidski said...

Ukraine_Eneolithic I4110 has both CHG and farmer ancestry. That's quite a complex concoction. How did it happen?

Did CHG race in from the east and farmers from the west, bumping into steppe foragers and each other in Ukraine around 3500 BC?

Or was this individual the end product of complex interactions that had been going on across the western steppe for at least hundreds of years?

I'm betting on the second explanation.

Rob said...

@ Epoch.


'But it does go to show SS was CHG admixted so it is a tad pointless trying to suggest - at least that is what I think you try to suggest - that the CHG part of Steppe is related to the introduction of PIE into the steppe. You seem bent to prove SS wasn't a pastoral culture to make that point, but CHG already was there in Dereivka."

What's the matter with you ?
I have never even used the word "PIE' here. I am talking about archaeological and animal facts here, not making any deductions about language, although theyd be linked. As I said, you're being dishonest. Quote properly:

This is what I said
"This parallels the genetic evidence of introgression post-4200 BC".

I'm very aware of Derievka. I think you forget who you;re talking to.



Also, do you speak German ?


"Doch halten wir die hier vorgelegten zoologischen Resultate für repräsentativ. Sie zeigen einen deutlichen Wechsel bei der bevorzugten Nutztierart mit dem Einsetzen der Jamnaja-Kultur. Während noch im 4. Jt. v. Chr. relativ hohe Wildtieranteile zumindest in einigen Siedlungen zu verzeichnen sind, wurde zumindest in der Usatovo-Kultur, die in der westlichen Peripherie des nordpontischen Steppenraums nach 3500 v. Chr. verbreitet war, eine spezialisierte Schaf-Ziegenzucht betrieben. Mit dem Übergang zur Jamnaja-Kultur findet abermals eine Veränderung statt. Die Hinwendung zu einer spezialisierten Rinderzucht erwies sich offenbar als sehr vorteilhaft, denn sie wird nicht nur in der Katakombengrabkultur bis zum Ende des 3. Jt. v. Chr. weiter verfolgt, sondern ist so effizient, dass sie auch noch in der Srubnaja- und Sabatinovka- Kultur als Erfolgsmodell bestehen bleibt. "

Transl. "But we consider the zoological results presented here to be representative. They show a clear change in the preferred livestock species with the onset of Jamnaja culture. While in the 4th century BC, Which are relatively high in the wild, are recorded in at least some settlements, was at least in the Usatovo culture, which in the western periphery of the north Pontic steppes after 3500 BC, Chr. Was a specialized sheep-goat breed. With the transition to the Jamnaya culture, however, a change takes place. The turn to a specialized breeding of cattle proved to be very beneficial because it is not only used in the catacombs' grave culture until the end of the 3rd century BC, But is so efficient that it still exists as a success model in the Srubnaja and Sabatinovka culture."

I had never claimed the arrival of CHG coincided with the arrival of Yamnaya specifically.

Rob said...

@ Davidski


:Did CHG race in from the east and farmers from the west, bumping into steppe foragers and each other in Ukraine around 3500 BC?

Or was this individual the end product of complex interactions that had been going on across the western steppe for at least hundreds of years?

I'm betting on the second explanation.:

There is hope for you, after all.
Of course, to continue on your new found path of approximating wisdom, you will have to have to come up with a new model for CHG in Yamnaya.

Davidski said...

My model is outlined here, and I4110 is part of it.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/a-plausible-model-for-formation-of.html

Ukraine_Neolithic_outlier I4110: by far the most West Asian-shifted Ukraine Neolithic/Eneolithic individual to date, sitting about 1/3 of the way from the Ukraine Mesolithic/Neolithic cluster to present-day Caucasians in a PCA of West Eurasian populations, and belonging to the typically Near Eastern mtDNA haplogroup J2b1. What this strongly suggests is that her mother was largely of Near Eastern origin, possibly from the southern periphery of the Pontic-Caspian steppe; another smoking gun for what I've been arguing.

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

Yes I speak German. That is why I know the paper is far more nuanced. SS kept Goats/Sheep. That is a form of pastoralism, isn't it?

"I have never even used the word "PIE' here. I am talking about archaeological and animal facts here, not making any deductions about language, although theyd be linked."

I said I was thinking you'd suggest this because I have a bit of a hard time figuring out where this all leads. However, this is what you wrote earlier on:

"The entire corpus of steppe Chalcolithic dates are much younger than assumed, which throws out the idea of the 'Kurgan I' wave. Combined with the growing data which shows that there were no pastoralists on the steppe before 3333 BC, which matches the genetic evidence of genetic shift from a pure EHG population to one CHG/ EHG, then we obviously need a new story. "

Most people here conflagrate Kurgan 1 wave with language so I assume you mean that.

Furthermore the German paper states that SS "eine spezialisierte Schaf-Ziegenzucht betrieben". That is pastoralism. They also found cattle in SS, but with Yamnaya came the change to overwhelming cattle-base pastoralism.

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

So the CHG in Yamnaya came from the Southern Urals....ever thought of that possibility ?

I will stick to mainstream evidence until the majority archaeologists and geneticists deside to change their minds and rectify the wrongs "if needed".

Rob said...

@ Epoch

"Yes I speak German. That is why I know the paper is far more nuanced. SS kept Goats/Sheep. That is a form of pastoralism, isn't it? "

This was found in Mayaki, Usatavo, and Mikhailovka. That is, in the Usatavo and Usatavo -related sites, which is thought to derive from C-T. You see
Mein German is better than yours, Ja ?

epoch2013 said...

@Rob also in Konstantinovka. Furthermore, there was considerable share of cattle in Moljuchov Bugor. Zie figure 1b.

The paper states this:

"Umstritten ist ebenfalls, inwieweit die Heraus-bildung einer spezialisierten Viehzucht, die auf Schaf/Ziege beruhte, im nordwestpontischen Steppengebiet von noch nachwirkenden Traditi-onen der in Auflösung befindlichen Tripol’e-Kul-tur beeinflusst war oder eine autochthone Ent-wicklung in der Steppe, d. h. Anpassung an den Naturraum, darstellte."

The idea that CT is involved isn't really contrary to pastoralism in SS, is it?

jv said...

Ha!

Ric Hern said...

@ epoch2013

Thanks for throwing light on this issue. Much appreciated.

batman said...

@ Ric,

"Why is the Northern Caspian so important ?"

Becasue it concludes the major highway from Old Europe to Ancient Asia - established no later than 9.000 yrs BP. Binding the local communities established during EME the first, organized trade-routes along the Volga - as across the Fenno-Scandian penninsula - was pretty complete at the later half of the Mesolithic.

At that time flints, slates and ceramics was already traded along the waters connecting Fenno-Scandia and Ural. No later than 8.000 BP did the export of asbestos from Carelia reach the Volga-connection - as well as Estonia and westcoast Scandinavia.

Later the copper- and silver-mining of Ural strengthened this trafic, as did the export of salt and oil from NW Europe. The export of iron from Fenno-Scandia boomed at the start of the Roman wars. At that point the Chineese silk and Indian spice seem to have arrived in Samarkand and Samaria - from where the cargo to Carelia was shipped, upsterams Volga. (When the first silk-route to Europe actually happened is still up for assessing and guessing.)

As the lower parts of Volga, especially from the Samarian bend where a shortcut to Don (former 'Tana') the green-fields around Samara became a vital crossroad for Scandianvian and Carelian traders - as they could follow Tana (Don) south-west to As-hov, rather than Volga southeast to As-tra-kan - or the mountain-route straight east to As-tana, Balkal and Tarim. The mythological and etymological connctions between Asi and Ari are pretty darn close, as is the early trafic of y-dna I/J - and the settlements of N - along the upper Volga. The later R1a seem to arrive Asia via Estonia/Carelia/Volga, while the R1b seem to have arrived via Ukraine/Crimea, thanks to Dvina-Djepr and Vistula-Bug-Djepr.

As the highlanders of R1a and the lowlanders of R1b met again out east - the Volga-Don-area became essntial to them both. As well as to the connecting traders. At the cross-roads at Samara-area they kept close relations with each other, just as they did in Central Europe, Scandianvia and Brittain. At Khavalynsk they even shared graveyards.

Mainstream archaeology have long missed the historical significance of Europes largest river - due to a lack of relaiable sources about the "Ladoga-Volga Highway" and the legendary silk-routes to Scandianvia. Toay we know that the emergence of European pottery, transport and trade - indeed came along the Volga-Ladoga highway.

Connecting Atlantic Europe d-i-r-e-c-t-l-y with Caspian Asia, Mesopotamia, India and China the lower plains, rivers and roads of the Caspian North became a collective hub for the spread and growth of agriculture and metalurgy throughout Eurasia. Here's the very cross-road of the inter-continental trade-routes that connected the ancient kingdoms of China and India to their collegial dynasties in Europe and the Middle East.

As one discover the impact of the Volga river-system throughout paleolithic and mesolithic time, when it's significance were of greater proportions than the rivers Nile, Eufrat, Tigris or Indus. One can't but wonder why its historical importance during the neolithic and the chalcolithic - when Eurasias largest coppermine was first explored north-east of Samara - is still not duely comprehended. Luckily the aDNA from the Deer Island (Oleni Ostrov) in Onega have given some important clues regarding the initial spread of both y-dna J and R1a to central Asia, as well as southern India...

batman said...

@ Jaydeeep,

"Both Gamkrelidze & Ivanov as well as Mallory & Adams, authors from totally different schools of IE studies, agree that the PIE had a well developed Neolithic economy."

They agree that PIE contained words from an early, neolithic economy. That doesn't mean that no PIE existed (long) before the neolithic economies. There's NO lingusitic patterns indicating that the PIE could NOT develop long before agriculture - and later adopt the entire concept of cattlefarming to create the due words, expressions and terms.

Knowing what we know today - about the 'gatherers' or 'foragerers' of Paleolithic Europe - we know they practised horticulture, herding, domestication and selective breeding. The grey wolf and some consequent wolf-dogs from Paleolithic Eurasia are some of many proves of proto-agriuculture practised already during ice-time, that have been completely unknown before the modern archeo-sciences emerged to produce technical analyzises and due evidences.

Today we have to re-evaluate the possible use of the several picks, sicles and grindstones found from Paleolithic Eurasia. At times together with bones from caprids, ovids, boar, horse and aurochs. Which all have been 'viewed' and categorized as "wild", by default.

Today one can't claim that the first cognates of mjolk/molko, melk/melek and milch/milk occured NO earlier than 9.000 BP. It's a pity, but todays facts don't fit yesterdays presumptious narrative of an "Fertile Crescent" bordering the Syrian dessert as the supposed beginning of ALL domestication.

Since domestications are proven to have happened during the Paleloithic, a number of "words-connected-to-the-domestication-of-plants-and-or-animals" must be from the same time. As should the PIE for that matter.

If old and new facts alone are preferred - over old opinons agreed and disagreed upon during the 20th century - we may have to complement and revise Mallory. Even when that means debunking parts of Anthony and all the jared Diamonds, .

First and last the I-E languages have a geographical span that just about overlaps the major spread of y-dna F->GHIJK/RST. As well as the sub-groups of mt-dna R.

Moreover we know that the Uralian distribution corresponds pretty well to the distribution of y-dna N1c and N1b. Then add that the Uralian have cognates for agriculture that parallels the I-E. Finally, consider that these two language-families seem to have a common (paleolithic) root.

Combined they cover the entire arctic hemisphere of Eurasia, from Man to Manchuria. Just like the (post-glacial) descendants of the makrogoups F and R, respectively. The overlap is obvious and can't be purely coincidental. Fortunately it can be explained by straight facts and plain logic.

@ Davidski,

Mt-dna J2 seem to be pretty "North-Mediterranean", rather than "Middle-Eastern". Sisterclad J1 is more widely spread - around the entire Med. As per Wiki;

"The average frequency of haplogroup J as a whole is today highest in the Near East (12%), followed by Europe (11%), the Caucasus (8%) and Northeast Africa (6%). Of the two main sub-groups, J1 takes up four-fifths of the total and is spread widely on the continent while J2 is more localised around the Mediterranean, Greece, Italy/Sardinia and Spain."

Descendant of macro-group R mt-dna J is obviously descendant to the palearctic genome that survived the LGM/YD north of the Alps.

It's distribution may correspond to the early spread of y-dna G - which became the prominent dynasty among the first high-cultures of the Mediterranean area. All the way east to Barcin, Sebu Gabi, Wezmeh and the first irrigation of Tigris. Accompanied by mito J1 - besides the standard mix of T2, U-K and H-V, as well as the odd X.
July 28, 2017 at 4:14 PM

batman said...

Rob,

You don't need C-T to explain S-S. You may try the barley and chickpea-growers from Narva-Carelia (PCW/CWC) and their contemporary R1a-cousins in Carelia and mainland Scandinavia - creating burialmounds, pigraves and flatgraves a millenia before the oldets chickpeas and flatgraves of S-S.

Btw.: Isn't the oldest existing R1a-types still found in western Scandianvia and Scotland/N Ireland?

Rob said...

yes batman, chickpeas

Ric Hern said...

Many cultures still today eat horse meat eg. Italians breed horses for slaughter...

epoch2013 said...

@Rob

And that is a matter of interpretation. I don't consider 50% cattle bones a sign of a hunter-gatherer community "experimenting", or one should consider TRB so as well. Now, we can discuss that another time because I am going to practice my German to coming weeks. But this whole discussion was quite unnecessary.

Furthermore, I'm not threatened in no way. You provide a link, I read it and I found that it doesn't support your case. Also I haven't used any profanity and remained civil, which I think may serve as an indication of involved pathologies.

Rob said...

@ Epoch

I don't care about the faux niceties of an obfuscator.
Every point you've made has been nothing but diatribe in an attempt to distract from the overwhelming weight of multiple papers. Your attempt at one-up-manship back-fired, because it turned out that you're utterly ignorant about cultural provenance of the sites concerned. So I understand that you must feel embarrassed that I understood the article better than you, who's a native German (of sorts).

So, no, there's no room for interpretation. The Eneolithic steppe was overwhelmingly forager-fisher-hunters. The Derivka horse hunters don;t cahnge this. This Usatavo and Majaki sites that you didn;t know belonged to CT -Usatavo-Cernavoda don;t change this, nor does Konstantinovka site - one special/ priviliged site on the lower Don which imported a considerable number of sheep from the southwest change the fact that the majority of sites (when adding Caspian and excluding the CT and Majkop "colonies") were Hunter-gatherers tethered to their riverine niches; whilst during Yamnaya they somehow become uniformly specialised cattle herders.


Any how, I grow bored of discussing with you. I only like to engage in debate with sincere & intelligent people. As I said, it's clear that people like you and Ric Hern need whatever mythology you have constructed in your head to validate your present.
O' Good luck with it.

lingo said...

I just had a view upon L Bluhm's (2017) book. According to her list of references, she has no knowledge whatever about linguistics, the misleading words in the title obviously only copied from Anthony or someone else. Another evidence for that are the two Indo-European language trees with a division long ago outdated. The map spans a far to broad era as to have any significance.

Ric Hern said...

@ Davidski

Did the earliest Samara R1b sample (+-5000 bC.if I remember correctly) have any CHG ancestry ?

Davidski said...

Only a couple per cent at best, but probably none.

Ric Hern said...

Thanks

jv said...

Davidski, Really enjoyed the paper. Thanks for the link.

Ric Hern said...

@ Davidski

I wonder what that Steppe admixture in the Canaanite Paper could mean ? It is said to be of Early Middle Bronze Age origin ? If this is Hittite admixture then what Linguistic implications could that have for Hittite ?